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 The Mafia of Udolpho
Monsieur
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  Posted Feb 11 2018, 06:20 PM
Still not sure about the other game I have in game ideas, but I want to host a bit and get some quick and simple games out before I pick up my series.

The Mafia of Udolpho
Based on Ann Radcliffe's Gothic classic The Mysteries of Udolpho

Flavour text: "Her present life appeared like the dream of a distempered imagination, or like one of those frightful fictions, in which the wild genius of the poets sometimes delighted. Reflection brought only regret, and anticipation terror"

Such is the state of mind of Ann Radcliffe's heroine Emily St. Aubert, who finds herself imprisoned in her evil guardian Count Montoni's gloomy medieval fortress in the remote Apennines. Terror is the order of the day inside the walls of Udolpho, as Emily struggles against Montoni's rapacious schemes and the threat of her own psychological disintegration.
-----

I am basing this game's design on the template Plasmid wrote down in the classic den mafia template thread.

Shamelessly stealing character descriptions from wikipedia. The wikipedia page is full of spoilers btw so if you feel like you will read that book, you shouldn't look. There'll be some spoilers in the flavour text down here though.

Friends and Heroes (Goodies):
Wincon: Eliminate the baddies and the Indies.

Emily St. Aubert
- Emily has a deep appreciation for the sublimity of nature, which she shares with her father. She is unusually beautiful and gentle with a slight, graceful figure, fond of books, nature, poetry, and music. She is described as extremely virtuous, obedient, resourceful, brave, sensitive, and self-reliant. Her sensitivity leads her to dwell (often in tears) on past misfortunes and to imagine, with dread, troubles that might befall her in the future. Mason with Annette

Annette - A maid who accompanied Madame Cheron from France. Annette is inclined to exaggeration and superstition, and is talkative, but she is faithful, affectionate and honest. She is in love with Ludovico and often gets locked in closets. Mason with Emily

Ludovico - One of Montoni's servants. He falls in love with Annette and provides assistance to Emily. He is more sensible than Annette, and is both brave and quick-thinking. He is the locker of closets. Trap (Block + Silenced + Unlynchable next Day

Valancourt - The younger brother of the Count Duvarney, Valancourt forms an attachment to Emily while travelling with her and her father through the Pyrenees. He is a dashing, enthusiastic young man with a noble character, on furlough from the army when he meets Emily. St. Aubert considers Valancourt a desirable match for Emily, though Valancourt lacks wealth. Kill

Lady Blanche - A sweet young woman who has a deep appreciation for the sublime and writes poetry. She resides at Chateau-le-Blanc and befriends Emily, with whom she shares many interests. Save

Monsieur Du Pont - One of Emily's suitors. Faction Spy

Madame Cheron - St. Aubert's sister and Emily's aunt. Madame Cheron is a selfish, worldly, vain, wealthy widow living on her estate near Toulouse when Emily becomes her ward. vote redirect

Dorothée - A servant at the Chateau-le-Blanc. She is superstitious, like Annette, but less inclined to be found in a closet. Messenger. Exactly 75 characters allowed. Smileys count as 1 each.

Monsieur St. Aubert - Emily's father. He warns Emily to not become a victim of her feelings but to acquire command over her emotions. 1-shot Lynch save

Manchon - Emily's faithful four-footed dog friend. Always appearing randomly in the castle. Lookout Spy

10 Goodies

Murderers and Villains (Baddies):
Wincon: Gain majority. Kill Indies.
Shares an NK which requires no carrier and can therefore not be blocked.
Baddies have a shared ODTG (once-during-the-game) lynch frame. The baddies need to specify which role the target is going to appear as.

Count Montoni
- The prototypical Gothic villain. Brooding, haughty, and scheming, he masquerades as an Italian nobleman to gain Madame Cheron's hand in marriage, then imprisons Emily and Madame Cheron in Udolpho in an attempt to acquire control over Madame Cheron's wealth and estates. He is cold and often cruel to Emily, who believes him to be a captain of banditti. Spied as Good, 1-shot bulletproof (will look like he was saved if he is targeted by a kill. Does not apply to lynches.)

Cavigni - Cavalier and friend of Montoni. Cavigini is sly, careful, and flatteringly assiduous. Redirect

Orsino - An assassin described as the "chief favourite of Montoni". He is cruel, suspicious, relentlessly vengeful, and merciless. Role Spy

3 Baddies.

Schemers and Rascals (Indies):
Wincon: Send in a correct RID List of the players. Wincon ends the game.
Indies have their own BTSC.
Will be told the amount of correct RIDs on their list, but not the specifics. To win the game, the RID list needs to be complete with all roles, but can send in a list with the minimum of 5 players.

The Indies can only send in one list per Night.

Count Morano
- Introduced to Emily by Montoni, who commands that she marry Morano. Emily refuses but Morano continues to pursue her in Venice and later Udolpho. When Montoni finds out that Count Morano is not as rich as he hoped, he abruptly withdraws his support from Count Morano's suit. Morano attempts to abduct Emily. Ask Host one Yes/No question each Night. Spied as goodie.

Barnardine - "I have been trusted in this affair, and if it was known, that betrayed my trust, my life, perhaps, might answer it." Count Morano's trusted and adept lackey. Inherits Count Morano's Yes/No question if Morano dies. Not the spy proof.

2 Indies.

Player total: 15

Rules:
-Kills are not blocking
-A redirected player will not be told that they were redirected.
-Spies' result, if redirected, will be their new target without the Spy knowing it.
-Redirect > Trap.
-Players will be informed if their action failed or was a success.
-Morano's Yes/No question cannot be redirected, but it can be blocked.
-Day actions cannot be redirected, but can be blocked.
-If there is a 1v1 situation (Goodie vs. Baddie), baddies win unless the final Goodie is the Kill (Valancourt) or the Vote Redirect (Madame Cheron). The players need to be active before the call is made though. This applies to Day only for Madame Cheron.
-If there is a 1v1/2/3 situation (Indy vs. Baddie) and it is Night, the game is carried on. Indy wins if their list that Night is correct. If it is Day, however, baddies win.
-If there is a 1v1v1/2/3 (Goodie vs. Indy vs. Baddie) the game continues until two factions are gone. If the Indy is lynched/killed, and the final goodie is not the Kill or the Vote Redirect, Baddies win.

What appears in the NP:
NK, Kill, successful Save, Trap, The lookout spy acting, but not their target.

What appears in the DP:
Lynch Save

In case of a tie:
D1 = No Lynch
D2 and onwards: Random Lynch between the tied players.


Thoughts:
I am unsure if goodies (or baddies for that part) should have a block, if there should be a fourth baddie, if the baddies need a self-vote manip, if the faction spy should be a role spy (and thus turning the "spied as goodie" into "spied as random goodie"), if the lynch save should be 1 shot, if there should be masons at all or if they should have additional abilities, if there should only be 1 indy and what their ability should be, and if the second indy should inherit the yes/no ability.

I have made the lookout spy appear so to not make 2 spies for Goodies too OP, but that might be unnecessary and even counter-productive?

I am unsure on the 1v1 and 1v1v1 scenarios. Like what's the fairest and most player-friendly way to solve that issue.


I'm an educated man, I read various remarkable books, but I cannot understand the direction I myself want to go, whether to live or to shoot myself, as it were. So, in case, I always carry a revolver about with me. - Epikhodov
-
And perhaps we are funny. But you must never imagine, that just because something is funny, Monsieur le Marquis, it is not dangerous. - Mr. Croup
-
I have always felt that violence was the last refuge of the incompetent, and empty threats the last sanctuary of the terminally inept. - Monsieur le Marquis
-
There is nothing so dangerous for anyone who has something to hide as conversation!... A human being cannot resist the opportunity to reveal himself and express his personality which conversation gives him. Every time he will give himself away. - Agatha Christie
Banjomeister
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  Posted Feb 12 2018, 09:40 AM
First question is more a confirmation, but based on the wincon for the indies it looks as though they have BTSC, is this so?

If so you might want to actually include that in the OP just to remove any chance of confusion, baddies are generally assumed to have BTSC but no other faction usually is AFAIK.


Rock...Paper...Scissors...BANJO!

I win user posted image


QUOTE (_aura @ Oct 18 2015, 05:41 AM)

"Do you, Aura, want to spend the rest of your life saying 'Holy s***, SaaB!'?"

" *srs face* Yes. Yes, I do. user posted image "

"You may now twist Aura's words"
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  Posted Feb 12 2018, 09:56 AM
I don't think the baddies have a bad balance here. I definitely wouldn't add a 4th baddie as that makes the indy wincon too easy IMHO and the redirect that doesn't show in any way (other than results) is pretty dang potent (information gathering & an extra action that can't be predicted by either side).

Literally the only thing about the baddie side that is slightly concerning is the lack of bodies and with a lynch frame & a bulletproof (which is masked) I think that is handled neatly. I do have a question about the bulletproof: Does it apply to lynches as well or just to night actions?

The Indy wincon is super interesting, however the fact that it ends the game could be a bit rough since it will make them a bigger and bigger threat as the game goes on...maybe that's not a bad thing though? http://mafiamaniac.org/smile/idk.gif It certainly will make outing ones self basically suicide...

Finally, on the goodie side of things: Holy crap, the power the goodies have over the lynch is insane...BTSC, vote redirect, AND a lynch save (I don't count the trap as there is a redirect in play that can affect it and even without redirect it is too double-edged to be effective as a lynch manip tool). I'm honestly unsure if this is too much or not, but if Montoni's bulletproof applies to lynches it definitely isn't as the goodies will likely need it to have a chance.

Finally, the (potentially) simplest question: Are kills blocking? If so I would not recommend adding a block to the game as there are already too many action-canceling actions in the game. If not it is somewhat up for debate in my mind.


Rock...Paper...Scissors...BANJO!

I win user posted image


QUOTE (_aura @ Oct 18 2015, 05:41 AM)

"Do you, Aura, want to spend the rest of your life saying 'Holy s***, SaaB!'?"

" *srs face* Yes. Yes, I do. user posted image "

"You may now twist Aura's words"
Monsieur
Group Icon
Posts: 7597
Gender: Male 
Awards: 31

B: 10-9
G: 36-21
I: 3-6
O: 10-12
TB: 2-1
TG: 3-7
  Posted Feb 12 2018, 05:46 PM
QUOTE (DarthMask @ Feb 12 2018, 02:40 PM)
First question is more a confirmation, but based on the wincon for the indies it looks as though they have BTSC, is this so?

If so you might want to actually include that in the OP just to remove any chance of confusion, baddies are generally assumed to have BTSC but no other faction usually is AFAIK.

Good point! Thanks! Yeah they have BTSC, I'll add that


I'm an educated man, I read various remarkable books, but I cannot understand the direction I myself want to go, whether to live or to shoot myself, as it were. So, in case, I always carry a revolver about with me. - Epikhodov
-
And perhaps we are funny. But you must never imagine, that just because something is funny, Monsieur le Marquis, it is not dangerous. - Mr. Croup
-
I have always felt that violence was the last refuge of the incompetent, and empty threats the last sanctuary of the terminally inept. - Monsieur le Marquis
-
There is nothing so dangerous for anyone who has something to hide as conversation!... A human being cannot resist the opportunity to reveal himself and express his personality which conversation gives him. Every time he will give himself away. - Agatha Christie
Monsieur
Group Icon
Posts: 7597
Gender: Male 
Awards: 31

B: 10-9
G: 36-21
I: 3-6
O: 10-12
TB: 2-1
TG: 3-7
  Posted Feb 12 2018, 05:52 PM
QUOTE (DarthMask @ Feb 12 2018, 02:56 PM)
I don't think the baddies have a bad balance here.  I definitely wouldn't add a 4th baddie as that makes the indy wincon too easy IMHO and the redirect that doesn't show in any way (other than results) is pretty dang potent (information gathering & an extra action that can't be predicted by either side).

Literally the only thing about the baddie side that is slightly concerning is the lack of bodies and with a lynch frame & a bulletproof (which is masked) I think that is handled neatly.  I do have a question about the bulletproof:  Does it apply to lynches as well or just to night actions?

The Indy wincon is super interesting, however the fact that it ends the game could be a bit rough since it will make them a bigger and bigger threat as the game goes on...maybe that's not a bad thing though? http://mafiamaniac.org/smile/idk.gif It certainly will make outing ones self basically suicide...

Finally, on the goodie side of things: Holy crap, the power the goodies have over the lynch is insane...BTSC, vote redirect, AND a lynch save (I don't count the trap as there is a redirect in play that can affect it and even without redirect it is too double-edged to be effective as a lynch manip tool).  I'm honestly unsure if this is too much or not, but if Montoni's bulletproof applies to lynches it definitely isn't as the goodies will likely need it to have a chance.

Finally, the (potentially) simplest question:  Are kills blocking?  If so I would not recommend adding a block to the game as there are already too many action-canceling actions in the game.  If not it is somewhat up for debate in my mind.


The Bulletproof is only for Night Actions. He can still be lynched before it is used, was how I was going at it tbh

Yeah I realise that. Maybe it should only be one Indy, or remove the Host Yes/No q. I want to punish outing without RID kills, and I don't want the indies to lucky get all the baddies early and sell 'em openly to the goodies, so that is why I want to avoid joint wins.

Hmm yeaah... I was thinking of giving the baddies a block appearing in the NP that could potentially stop Day actions, or a self-vote manip on Montoni since I did not consider applying his bulletproof on the day as well (although, that'd practically out him in a way if the player is really scummy since the Lynch Save is 1-shot). Maybe I should remove the lynch save...

Kills are not blocking, tbh.

Thanks for the feedback http://mafiamaniac.org/smile/modhello.gif


I'm an educated man, I read various remarkable books, but I cannot understand the direction I myself want to go, whether to live or to shoot myself, as it were. So, in case, I always carry a revolver about with me. - Epikhodov
-
And perhaps we are funny. But you must never imagine, that just because something is funny, Monsieur le Marquis, it is not dangerous. - Mr. Croup
-
I have always felt that violence was the last refuge of the incompetent, and empty threats the last sanctuary of the terminally inept. - Monsieur le Marquis
-
There is nothing so dangerous for anyone who has something to hide as conversation!... A human being cannot resist the opportunity to reveal himself and express his personality which conversation gives him. Every time he will give himself away. - Agatha Christie
Monsieur
Group Icon
Posts: 7597
Gender: Male 
Awards: 31

B: 10-9
G: 36-21
I: 3-6
O: 10-12
TB: 2-1
TG: 3-7
  Posted Feb 12 2018, 05:56 PM
or maybe, re-indies, I should remove the inheritance http://mafiamaniac.org/smile/hmm.gif


I'm an educated man, I read various remarkable books, but I cannot understand the direction I myself want to go, whether to live or to shoot myself, as it were. So, in case, I always carry a revolver about with me. - Epikhodov
-
And perhaps we are funny. But you must never imagine, that just because something is funny, Monsieur le Marquis, it is not dangerous. - Mr. Croup
-
I have always felt that violence was the last refuge of the incompetent, and empty threats the last sanctuary of the terminally inept. - Monsieur le Marquis
-
There is nothing so dangerous for anyone who has something to hide as conversation!... A human being cannot resist the opportunity to reveal himself and express his personality which conversation gives him. Every time he will give himself away. - Agatha Christie
Monsieur
Group Icon
Posts: 7597
Gender: Male 
Awards: 31

B: 10-9
G: 36-21
I: 3-6
O: 10-12
TB: 2-1
TG: 3-7
  Posted Feb 14 2018, 08:59 AM
Made some changes and clarifications
-Montoni has now a self-vote multiplier, x0 and x2, as well
-Morano has a role spy instead of Yes/No question, which will be inherited by his teammate if he is the first of indies that dies.
-clarified that traps are not saving

The Mafia of Udolpho
Based on Ann Radcliffe's Gothic classic The Mysteries of Udolpho

Flavour text: "Her present life appeared like the dream of a distempered imagination, or like one of those frightful fictions, in which the wild genius of the poets sometimes delighted. Reflection brought only regret, and anticipation terror"

Such is the state of mind of Ann Radcliffe's heroine Emily St. Aubert, who finds herself imprisoned in her evil guardian Count Montoni's gloomy medieval fortress in the remote Apennines. Terror is the order of the day inside the walls of Udolpho, as Emily struggles against Montoni's rapacious schemes and the threat of her own psychological disintegration.
-----

I am basing this game's design on the template Plasmid wrote down in the classic den mafia template thread.

Shamelessly stealing character descriptions from wikipedia. The wikipedia page is full of spoilers btw so if you feel like you will read that book, you shouldn't look. There'll be some spoilers in the flavour text down here though.

Friends and Heroes (Goodies):
Wincon: Eliminate the baddies and the Indies.

Emily St. Aubert
- Emily has a deep appreciation for the sublimity of nature, which she shares with her father. She is unusually beautiful and gentle with a slight, graceful figure, fond of books, nature, poetry, and music. She is described as extremely virtuous, obedient, resourceful, brave, sensitive, and self-reliant. Her sensitivity leads her to dwell (often in tears) on past misfortunes and to imagine, with dread, troubles that might befall her in the future. Mason with Annette

Annette - A maid who accompanied Madame Cheron from France. Annette is inclined to exaggeration and superstition, and is talkative, but she is faithful, affectionate and honest. She is in love with Ludovico and often gets locked in closets. Mason with Emily

Ludovico - One of Montoni's servants. He falls in love with Annette and provides assistance to Emily. He is more sensible than Annette, and is both brave and quick-thinking. He is the locker of closets. Trap (Block + Silenced + Unlynchable next Day

Valancourt - The younger brother of the Count Duvarney, Valancourt forms an attachment to Emily while travelling with her and her father through the Pyrenees. He is a dashing, enthusiastic young man with a noble character, on furlough from the army when he meets Emily. St. Aubert considers Valancourt a desirable match for Emily, though Valancourt lacks wealth. Kill

Lady Blanche - A sweet young woman who has a deep appreciation for the sublime and writes poetry. She resides at Chateau-le-Blanc and befriends Emily, with whom she shares many interests. Save

Monsieur Du Pont - One of Emily's suitors. Faction Spy

Madame Cheron - St. Aubert's sister and Emily's aunt. Madame Cheron is a selfish, worldly, vain, wealthy widow living on her estate near Toulouse when Emily becomes her ward. vote redirect

Dorothée - A servant at the Chateau-le-Blanc. She is superstitious, like Annette, but less inclined to be found in a closet. Messenger. Exactly 75 characters allowed. Smileys count as 1 each.

Monsieur St. Aubert - Emily's father. He warns Emily to not become a victim of her feelings but to acquire command over her emotions. 1-shot Lynch save

Manchon - Emily's faithful four-footed dog friend. Always appearing randomly in the castle. Lookout spy

10 Goodies

Murderers and Villains (Baddies):
Wincon: Gain majority. Kill Indies.
Shares an NK which requires no carrier and can therefore not be blocked.
Baddies have a shared ODTG (once-during-the-game) lynch frame. The baddies need to specify which role the target is going to appear as.

Count Montoni
- The prototypical Gothic villain. Brooding, haughty, and scheming, he masquerades as an Italian nobleman to gain Madame Cheron's hand in marriage, then imprisons Emily and Madame Cheron in Udolpho in an attempt to acquire control over Madame Cheron's wealth and estates. He is cold and often cruel to Emily, who believes him to be a captain of banditti. Spied as Good, 1-shot bulletproof (will look like he was saved if he is targeted by a kill. Does not apply to lynches.) Has a self-vote multiplier, can make his own vote worth 0x or 2x

Cavigni - Cavalier and friend of Montoni. Cavigini is sly, careful, and flatteringly assiduous. Redirect

Orsino - An assassin described as the "chief favourite of Montoni". He is cruel, suspicious, relentlessly vengeful, and merciless. Role Spy

3 Baddies.

Schemers and Rascals (Indies):
Wincon: Send in a correct RID List of the players. Wincon ends the game.
Indies have their own BTSC.
Will be told the amount of correct RIDs on their list, but not the specifics. To win the game, the RID list needs to be complete with all roles, but can send in a list with the minimum of 5 players.

The Indies can only send in one list per Night.

Count Morano
- Introduced to Emily by Montoni, who commands that she marry Morano. Emily refuses but Morano continues to pursue her in Venice and later Udolpho. When Montoni finds out that Count Morano is not as rich as he hoped, he abruptly withdraws his support from Count Morano's suit. Morano attempts to abduct Emily. Role spy. Spied as goodie.

Barnardine - "I have been trusted in this affair, and if it was known, that betrayed my trust, my life, perhaps, might answer it." Count Morano's trusted and adept lackey. Inherits the Role Spy if Morano dies. Not the spy proof.

2 Indies.

Player total: 15

Rules:
-Kills are not blocking
-Traps do not save
-A redirected player will not be told that they were redirected.
-Spies' result, if redirected, will be their new target without the Spy knowing it.
-Redirect > Trap.
-Players will be informed if their action failed or was a success.
-Day actions cannot be redirected, but can be blocked.
-If there is a 1v1 situation (Goodie vs. Baddie), baddies win unless the final Goodie is the Kill (Valancourt) or the Vote Redirect (Madame Cheron). The players need to be active before the call is made though. This applies to Day only for Madame Cheron.
-If there is a 1v1/2/3 situation (Indy vs. Baddie) and it is Night, the game is carried on. Indy wins if their list that Night is correct. If it is Day, however, baddies win.
-If there is a 1v1v1/2/3 (Goodie vs. Indy vs. Baddie) the game continues until two factions are gone. If the Indy is lynched/killed, and the final goodie is not the Kill or the Vote Redirect, Baddies win.

What appears in the NP:
NK, Kill, successful Save, Trap, The lookout spy acting, but not their target.

What appears in the DP:
Lynch Save

In case of a tie:
D1 = No Lynch
D2 and onwards: Random Lynch between the tied players.


My thoughts are still the same. Still unsure on stuff


I'm an educated man, I read various remarkable books, but I cannot understand the direction I myself want to go, whether to live or to shoot myself, as it were. So, in case, I always carry a revolver about with me. - Epikhodov
-
And perhaps we are funny. But you must never imagine, that just because something is funny, Monsieur le Marquis, it is not dangerous. - Mr. Croup
-
I have always felt that violence was the last refuge of the incompetent, and empty threats the last sanctuary of the terminally inept. - Monsieur le Marquis
-
There is nothing so dangerous for anyone who has something to hide as conversation!... A human being cannot resist the opportunity to reveal himself and express his personality which conversation gives him. Every time he will give himself away. - Agatha Christie
Banjomeister
*
Posts: 1393
Gender: Male 
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B: 4-4
G: 11-11
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TB:
TG:
  Posted Feb 14 2018, 12:54 PM
Another question: Does the trap silence the target in BTSC? Also, does it prevent the person from being targeted by the messenger role (and if so will the messenger know that explicitly)?


Rock...Paper...Scissors...BANJO!

I win user posted image


QUOTE (_aura @ Oct 18 2015, 05:41 AM)

"Do you, Aura, want to spend the rest of your life saying 'Holy s***, SaaB!'?"

" *srs face* Yes. Yes, I do. user posted image "

"You may now twist Aura's words"
Monsieur
Group Icon
Posts: 7597
Gender: Male 
Awards: 31

B: 10-9
G: 36-21
I: 3-6
O: 10-12
TB: 2-1
TG: 3-7
  Posted Feb 14 2018, 03:34 PM
QUOTE (DarthMask @ Feb 14 2018, 05:54 PM)
Another question:  Does the trap silence the target in BTSC?  Also, does it prevent the person from being targeted by the messenger role (and if so will the messenger know that explicitly)?

It does not silence a person in their btsc
no, the player can still get a message


I'm an educated man, I read various remarkable books, but I cannot understand the direction I myself want to go, whether to live or to shoot myself, as it were. So, in case, I always carry a revolver about with me. - Epikhodov
-
And perhaps we are funny. But you must never imagine, that just because something is funny, Monsieur le Marquis, it is not dangerous. - Mr. Croup
-
I have always felt that violence was the last refuge of the incompetent, and empty threats the last sanctuary of the terminally inept. - Monsieur le Marquis
-
There is nothing so dangerous for anyone who has something to hide as conversation!... A human being cannot resist the opportunity to reveal himself and express his personality which conversation gives him. Every time he will give himself away. - Agatha Christie
lolcat
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Awards: 17

B: 2-4
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TB:
TG: 2-0
  Posted Feb 15 2018, 02:03 AM
Would the indies need to RID only living players or dead players too? RIDing early NK victims would probably be tough, as would telling which role a baddie is instead of just that they’re baddie. And for the two masons it might be reasonable to say the indies can say which two players are masons but not necessarily which player is which of the two mason roles.

The baddies' main defense against claiming is the ability to spy+kill and fake-claim the spied role. But it would be tough to pull off with this setup because half the goodie roles can’t be successfully faked like that. A mason role can’t be fake-claimed if the other mason is alive, the trap and the lookout spy can’t be killed and claimed since their actions appear (unless you add a baddie block that doesn’t appear in the NP and he hasn’t been lynched by the time of the fake-claim), and a fake-claimed messenger would be expected to know what he messaged to his targets and be able to prove his claim that way.

QUOTE (Boquise @ Feb 11 2018, 03:20 PM)
Thoughts:
I am unsure if goodies (or baddies for that part) should have a block I see neither a particular need for a block, nor untoward effects if you decide to add one, if there should be a fourth baddie depends on how the indies play and are handled; if they side with town even a little bit then balance seems to favor town, and they’ll probably try to help get baddies lynched during the day, if the baddies need a self-vote manip done, if the faction spy should be a role spy (and thus turning the "spied as goodie" into "spied as random goodie") idk. It might make it harder for the baddies to spy+kill => fake-claim if there's a risk that the player/role they're claiming was rolespied by the goodie spy on or before the night of the spy+kill so they would be busted, but not by a whole lot, if the lynch save should be 1 shot I wouldn’t be opposed to >1 shot; if it’s 1 shot then it basically just means that player is unlynchable (if they’re up for lynch they survive, and if they survive a lynch once then they’re proven goodie and won’t get voted again) while if it’s >1 shot then it might make some degree of sense to lynch save someone else to keep roles from being obvious,  if there should be masons at all or if they should have additional abilities masons is one of the things working against the spy+kill => fake-claim mechanic that would let baddies survive a claim fest, so I wouldn't be opposed to splitting them up with this setup, if there should only be 1 indy and what their ability should be, and if the second indy should inherit the yes/no ability shrug, I don’t think I’ve seen this indy wincon before except as a backup in Duck Mafia.

I have made the lookout spy appear so to not make 2 spies for Goodies too OP, but that might be unnecessary and even counter-productive? It’s one of the things that it makes it even harder for the baddies to effectively use the spy+kill => fake-claim strategy.

I am unsure on the 1v1 and 1v1v1 scenarios. Like what's the fairest and most player-friendly way to solve that issue. I think what you have is ok. Typically those endgame scenarios aren’t spelled out in the OP at all and that seems to work ok tho.

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  Posted Feb 15 2018, 04:48 PM
"Would the indies need to RID only living players or dead players too? RIDing early NK victims would probably be tough, as would telling which role a baddie is instead of just that they’re baddie. And for the two masons it might be reasonable to say the indies can say which two players are masons but not necessarily which player is which of the two mason roles."
Indies would need to RID dead players too.
Is the Ask host a yes/no question a better in ability than the role spy in that case?

I agree that it is better that they link it to the correct ability tbh

"The baddies' main defense against claiming is the ability to spy+kill and fake-claim the spied role. But it would be tough to pull off with this setup because half the goodie roles can’t be successfully faked like that."
True... I don't know what alternative roles I should give the goodies though :/

"depends on how the indies play and are handled; if they side with town even a little bit then balance seems to favor town, and they’ll probably try to help get baddies lynched during the day"
Indies cannot win with goodies though

-Noted about the goodie spy. They'll stay Faction Spy

"I wouldn’t be opposed to >1 shot; if it’s 1 shot then it basically just means that player is unlynchable (if they’re up for lynch they survive, and if they survive a lynch once then they’re proven goodie and won’t get voted again) while if it’s >1 shot then it might make some degree of sense to lynch save someone else to keep roles from being obvious"
Yeah I was thinking that the lynch save can save a lynch target once during the game

"masons is one of the things working against the spy+kill => fake-claim mechanic that would let baddies survive a claim fest, so I wouldn't be opposed to splitting them up with this setup"
Like having them have to find each other through RIDs or just remove the masons altogether?

"shrug, I don’t think I’ve seen this indy wincon before except as a backup in Duck Mafia."
ehehehhe...

"It’s one of the things that it makes it even harder for the baddies to effectively use the spy+kill => fake-claim strategy."
I shall remove that they appear in the NP then tbh

"I think what you have is ok. Typically those endgame scenarios aren’t spelled out in the OP at all and that seems to work ok tho."
Alright
I wanted to make myself prepared if something like that happened lol


thanks for the feedback!


I'm an educated man, I read various remarkable books, but I cannot understand the direction I myself want to go, whether to live or to shoot myself, as it were. So, in case, I always carry a revolver about with me. - Epikhodov
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And perhaps we are funny. But you must never imagine, that just because something is funny, Monsieur le Marquis, it is not dangerous. - Mr. Croup
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I have always felt that violence was the last refuge of the incompetent, and empty threats the last sanctuary of the terminally inept. - Monsieur le Marquis
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There is nothing so dangerous for anyone who has something to hide as conversation!... A human being cannot resist the opportunity to reveal himself and express his personality which conversation gives him. Every time he will give himself away. - Agatha Christie
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  Posted Mar 2 2018, 09:34 PM
bump


I'm an educated man, I read various remarkable books, but I cannot understand the direction I myself want to go, whether to live or to shoot myself, as it were. So, in case, I always carry a revolver about with me. - Epikhodov
-
And perhaps we are funny. But you must never imagine, that just because something is funny, Monsieur le Marquis, it is not dangerous. - Mr. Croup
-
I have always felt that violence was the last refuge of the incompetent, and empty threats the last sanctuary of the terminally inept. - Monsieur le Marquis
-
There is nothing so dangerous for anyone who has something to hide as conversation!... A human being cannot resist the opportunity to reveal himself and express his personality which conversation gives him. Every time he will give himself away. - Agatha Christie
shrugged
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  Posted Mar 7 2018, 08:33 AM
QUOTE (Boquise @ Mar 3 2018, 03:34 AM)
bump

You got a "what you have is OK". I'd wrap it up and put it in Games Ready if I were you. Any remaining questions can be ironed out during signups.

But yes, I am highly subjective because of all that "..." in the board news and lanes sitting empty feeling.


... A red bird of my desire came and sat upon my shoulder, and I wrote a note and tied it to its leg and sent it off into the west. It said, "I'll be back," and it was signed by me.
... I saw my earlier selves as different people, acquaintances I had outgrown. I wondered how I could ever have been some of them.
... *shrug* Good-bye and hello, as always.

Spoiler for The three laws of the ol' faithful goodie killer

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  Posted Mar 7 2018, 11:15 AM
For indy ability, role spy should be ok but maybe give them an option to spy dead players since they need to RID them too. And be able to rid two players as "mason" instead of which particular player is which mason if you keep the masons.

I'm still thinking it might be better not to have masons so it would be easier for the baddies to successfully use a spy+kill fake claim move. Other abilities they could have are bulletproof vest, inheritor, die roll, or unconventional roles like a lookout that names who he thinks will be the NK victim and sees a random baddie if correct, or whatever you might think of.

But yeah let's get the game's signups posted soon 'cause I'm still not in a position to run Dungeons & Mafia yet.
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