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 Order of actions..., ...discussion.
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  Posted Jan 26 2011, 01:36 PM
At Araver's request in another thread (Intro, by OT), I'm starting this thread and throwing in my two cents.

Order of actions, to me, implies that this is the order in which each action "takes its turn" so to speak.

So, for example, if we have...
RID Kill > Redirect > Block > Save > Kill

I would determine the outcome of the night by using the actions in that order. So the first thing I should look at is RID Kills. If a RID Kill kills the save, the Saver is dead. By the time we get down the chain to the save, it doesn't matter if the Saver was right or wrong, because he's dead. The kill goes through (unless it was blocked).

I guess you could think of it as "time slots" (or initiative counts for D&D players). We'll say that the order of actions starts at 8PM (the time is arbitrary). Each action thereafter takes place an hour later than the previous one. That would mean that a redirect goes at 9pm (the RID kill happened at 8PM, so you can't redirect it). The block goes at 10PM, so the Blocker can't block the RID kill or the Redirect. And so on. If the RID Kill (which happens at 8PM) kills the Saver (at 8PM), by 11PM (the Saver's "time slot") the Saver is dead and cannot save.

Is that confusing?
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  Posted Jan 26 2011, 01:44 PM
Lol, I was also writing a topic on that ... but I'm slower laugh.gif

OK, I'm not confused, in fact I agree on the turn-based order of actions and did it in both Mafias I hosted.
Let's call this DETERMINISTIC UNIVERSE

PROs I see:
- It makes writing the night-post/rechecking the actions a cleaner experience for the host. Only two passes needed to see that everything checks out.
- It makes reasoning over the night-post a cleaner experience for the players.
- It makes loops almost impossible. Although "X kills Y who kills Z" still need to be treated separately as tie examples.

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  Posted Jan 26 2011, 01:47 PM
In tie situations, they both should happen, unless they cancel each other out.. And there should never be a coin toss or random element. I've seen a few of those.

BlahBlah, in Pirates of Penzance, had the order of actions be the order they were sent to the host. This is unique and offers a strange kind of strategy, but overall I didn't like it. A lot of people couldn't be on early in the day, so it made their role useless (the block was one of them).


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  Posted Jan 26 2011, 01:50 PM
I like the D & D initiative analogy... It's fitting. That's how I do mine. Although with me, unless specifically stated, my night kills go through regardless. Like GM has said, it is on a different track altogether. The only thing in my games that can prevent a kill is the save.


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  Posted Jan 26 2011, 01:51 PM
QUOTE (Molly Mae @ Jan 26 2011, 12:47 PM)
In tie situations, they both should happen, unless they cancel each other out..  And there should never be a coin toss or random element.  I've seen a few of those.

BlahBlah, in Pirates of Penzance, had the order of actions be the order they were sent to the host.  This is unique and offers a strange kind of strategy, but overall I didn't like it.  A lot of people couldn't be on early in the day, so it made their role useless (the block was one of them).



And Night 1, Filly made mention that he had sent his action in within about 5 minutes of the roles being sent. So, then, when the Night post hit, it was obvious who he was.


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  Posted Jan 26 2011, 02:09 PM
I read Pirates of Penzance and I'm tagging it REAL-TIME UNIVERSE. Offtopic: I thought that cured Slick always saying "action in", but apparently it didn't http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/5651/post598012563908168249.gif

I'm not sure how to call Hirk's, GM's and I think SH's parallel NK-track. The fact is, no offense, it breaks the space-time continuum. I might get to call it DETERMINISTIC UNIVERSE WITH A NIGHT KILL FROM OUTER SPACE or something.
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  Posted Jan 26 2011, 02:19 PM
It's just a differently situated order. My thing is that the baddies don't have to choose who makes the kill (Movie Mafia aside) so that way the kill happens. In the case of there only being one baddie remaining, it's as if the role has 2 actions. The kill takes place before anything and then their individual action occurs within the timeline of the "Order of Actions." If I allow the baddie kill to not go through just because a goodie got lucky (save not withstanding) then it could end up being a very lop-sided mafia. The baddie kill provides balance.


Beware the Scotch of Clumsiness!!!

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  Posted Jan 26 2011, 02:27 PM
QUOTE (Hirkala @ Jan 26 2011, 09:19 PM)
It's just a differently situated order.  My thing is that the baddies don't have to choose who makes the kill (Movie Mafia aside) so that way the kill happens.  In the case of there only being one baddie remaining, it's as if the role has 2 actions.  The kill takes place before anything and then their individual action occurs within the timeline of the "Order of Actions."  If I allow the baddie kill to not go through just because a goodie got lucky (save not withstanding) then it could end up being a very lop-sided mafia.  The baddie kill provides balance.


OK, that I can get - the two views about NK with or without a person behind it. But I thought you meant another variant where NK is not a blocking kill, see SH's post in Glitch Mafia.
See, what you say is that the NK is the absolute first.

What SH said in that post (and GM is using in the Glitch Mafia) is that the NK still allows the target of the NK to act. Which is weird cause in a deterministic universe he should be dead already.
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  Posted Jan 26 2011, 02:33 PM
Yeah, in mine the kill kills first and therefore the target's action can not happen...


Beware the Scotch of Clumsiness!!!

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  Posted Jan 26 2011, 02:36 PM
If SH or GM do decide to formalize that system, I'm dubbing it SPAGHETTI UNIVERSE. My brains still warps around itself trying to explain that laugh.gif
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  Posted Jan 26 2011, 02:54 PM
QUOTE (_araver @ Jan 26 2011, 03:09 PM)
I read Pirates of Penzance and I'm tagging it REAL-TIME UNIVERSE. Offtopic: I thought that cured Slick always saying "action in", but apparently it didn't http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/5651/post598012563908168249.gif

I'm not sure how to call Hirk's, GM's and I think SH's parallel NK-track. The fact is, no offense, it breaks the space-time continuum. I might get to call it DETERMINISTIC UNIVERSE WITH A NIGHT KILL FROM OUTER SPACE or something.

I think that unreality's earliest mafias followed the REAL-TIME UNIVERSE model with some modifications as unreality saw fit. Actually, I think that he sort of did a converse of that. He tried to put the night post in some order such that if a player was killed in the night post, they would act before that happened. That ran into problems pretty quickly dealing with loops, like you said.

Itachi-san gave up on that model during the Anime Battle Royale games. In his model, actions all happened more or less simultaneously and the night post was in whatever order he wanted it. I recollect during N2 in ABR2, the player dying in the first action shown also was the same player who killed someone as the last action shown.

The policy that I think was most clearly adopted on mOs and the one to which I try to adhere has all actions take place at the same time. There was no concept of precedence, so things resolved on a case-by-case basis, which did lead to problems of consistency. That was why I tried to outline the precedence in Warcraft III Battle and focused on it in Deluxe.* It might be a little more nebulous conceptually, but under the model, all actions happen at the same time and the precedence of actions only matter when there are collisions. In that model, the kill can never block anyone because it will happen at the same time as the target acts. The only thing that can block someone is the block.

Like I said, due to the poor documentation of precedence, there were occasional hiccups when actions came in that were mutually exclusive. They led to non-deterministic situations because if action X happened first, then A would happen, but if action Y happened first, then B would happen and A and B were inconsistent.

I prefer this model (with the addition of a clear role precedence) to your idea of the DETERMINISTIC UNIVERSE. With the addition of the precedence, it's still deterministic, but it doesn't allow abilities higher on the chain to become de facto blocks to those lower on the chain. In fact, I see something of a problem with the DU.

In order for a Save to be effective, it has to have higher precedence than the Kill, but if a Kill can't be blocked, then neither can the Save in the DU. If Save > Kill and Kill > Block, then transitive property states Save > Block. Is this a desired effect of the model? unsure.gif The same goes if the Redirect can't change the Kill target.

I would call my preferred system the MOS PRECEDENCE UNIVERSE, for lack of a better name, but it's the one I would prefer to use in a standard mafia. You can always add exceptions to it too. If the NK can't be blocked or redirected, then you can add that, while still allowing the save to be blocked or redirected if you want.

* I would point out that WCIII Deluxe doesn't adhere to my model; it's more squarely in the DU category, but that's intentional considering the complexity of the system.


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  Posted Jan 26 2011, 03:30 PM
I think I might develop a new system for my games. Where certain actions have an effect on some actions, but not on others. It may end up just being a huge mistake and confuse things even more, but I'll give it a try and see how it looks...


Beware the Scotch of Clumsiness!!!

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  Posted Jan 27 2011, 10:48 AM
It's a web of actions, instead of a line. I think someone should post a web and we can argue over what should beat what.

Give me a bit and I might do it.


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  Posted Jan 27 2011, 11:56 AM
I think a small example

Block > save > kill
redirect > save > kill
kill > redirect
redirect > block

Like that MM?


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  Posted Jan 27 2011, 12:21 PM
You could represent it that way, I guess, but it would be easier to understand in a bubble web.

Each action has its own bubble and points an arrow toward the one(s) that it "beats". It does cause loops, though.

Hmmm...how about the "Stratego Spy"?

Night Kill > Redirect > Block > Spy > Save (> Night Kill)

The save is still greater than the night kill, but it's the only one that is. Like they Spy in the game Stratego. This is how I see every game anyway.


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