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 Classic Den Mafia Template
Monsieur
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  Posted Jan 19 2018, 06:11 PM
I was thinking that a thread could be good for this.

I encourage other peeps to add roles/chime in with suggestions to make this template as accurate and balanced as possible, so it can be used several times. Multiple templates could work too, especially when we add more spots on the sign-ups.

Flavour is up for the individual host to create for their game. It can be complex, it can be simple, it can be based of a movie/game/tv show/whatever or their own idea.

This is my suggestion for Template A, an 11 player game.

9 goodies vs. 2 baddies
Baddies
Baddie A - Redirect
Baddie B - Self-vote manip

NK requires no carrier and can't be blocked
Baddies can trade in their NK for 2 RID Kills. If 1 RID kill is correct the other RID kill fails regardless. This cannot be used two nights in a row. Use it on N1, and you have to wait until N3 to do it again.

Wincon: Gain majority

9 Goodies
Goodie A: Save
Goodie B: Beep beep spy
Goodie C: Kill
Goodie D: Block
Goodie E: Vote redirect
Goodie F: ?
Goodie G: ?
Goodie H: ?
Goodie I: ?

Wincon: Wipe out the baddies

OOA: Redirect > Block



Questions:
Okay so I am a bit too tired for the roles, and coming up with additional ones.

Also, plasmid I have forgotten how your beep beep spy works



Also, I was first thinking this as a 12 player game with 3 baddies and 9 goodies. Then 2 baddies with 10 goodies. Settled with 2 baddies and 9 goodies. Not sure what is preferable/more balanced.


Fire away.
How do you think this template should work out?


(I am thinking that we can start working on template B after finishing this one)


Can tag recent hosts whom might be interested in this but everyone is welcomed and encouraged to contribute.
araver Hachi maurice Yuli sparrowhawk GM_AdminPhaze


I'm an educated man, I read various remarkable books, but I cannot understand the direction I myself want to go, whether to live or to shoot myself, as it were. So, in case, I always carry a revolver about with me. - Epikhodov
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And perhaps we are funny. But you must never imagine, that just because something is funny, Monsieur le Marquis, it is not dangerous. - Mr. Croup
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I have always felt that violence was the last refuge of the incompetent, and empty threats the last sanctuary of the terminally inept. - Monsieur le Marquis
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There is nothing so dangerous for anyone who has something to hide as conversation!... A human being cannot resist the opportunity to reveal himself and express his personality which conversation gives him. Every time he will give himself away. - Agatha Christie
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  Posted Jan 19 2018, 06:15 PM
perhaps one baddie should be like a Godfather


I'm an educated man, I read various remarkable books, but I cannot understand the direction I myself want to go, whether to live or to shoot myself, as it were. So, in case, I always carry a revolver about with me. - Epikhodov
-
And perhaps we are funny. But you must never imagine, that just because something is funny, Monsieur le Marquis, it is not dangerous. - Mr. Croup
-
I have always felt that violence was the last refuge of the incompetent, and empty threats the last sanctuary of the terminally inept. - Monsieur le Marquis
-
There is nothing so dangerous for anyone who has something to hide as conversation!... A human being cannot resist the opportunity to reveal himself and express his personality which conversation gives him. Every time he will give himself away. - Agatha Christie
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  Posted Jan 19 2018, 06:30 PM
QUOTE (Boquise @ Jan 19 2018, 06:11 PM)

Baddies can trade in their NK for 2 RID Kills. If 1 RID kill is correct the other RID kill fails regardless. This cannot be used two nights in a row. Use it on N1, and you have to wait until N3 to do it again.

2v9 can be a bit rough for the baddies, especially if other goodies are going to get abilities.

I also don't really understand the text I quoted. Is there any reason only one RID kill will work? I think it would be completely fair to allow the baddies to do it every night AND let both RID kills happen if successful. It would actually add a neat dynamic to the game where goodies might fake claim (where now, if such a thing ever happened, they'd just get cc'd and lynched). With only one successful RID kill, though, I don't see a reason the baddies would ever do it without some compensation in OOA/OOP (e.g., RID Kill >> Save >> Kill).



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  Posted Jan 19 2018, 06:40 PM
I'm no expert, but isn't 2 baddies 9 goodies heavily goodie-sided?
And what exactly do you mean by "if one RID kill is correct the other fails regardless"? Are the two submitted kills checked in order and if the first succeeds, the other automatically fails? That doesn't seem like a very effective deterrent to mass claiming then, IMO, even if it bypasses saves. Goodies could still easily just mass claim D1 and narrow the scum pool down massively, unless it ups the KPN. Then it's just a matter of lynching a baddie day 1 or 2 and coasting to a near-automatic win.
Obviously the goodie kill and baddie self vote manip muddle things a little, but I wouldn't be surprised if most variants of this setup could be "solved" with minimal effort, unless I'm missing something.

And I completely forgot about the spy, though I've no idea what this "beep beep spy" you're talking about is.


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  Posted Jan 19 2018, 07:01 PM
Completely agreed with Machina.

The "beep" spy is generally a role that can list a number of players (usually 3) and gets a "beep" if some of them are baddies. Plasmid's version gave a beep if exactly one in the list was a baddie. Additionally, there was a goodie role that always makes a list beep if they are included. I didn't play in the game, but it looked super neat. It was called Screwball Mafia


I should append my PGP public key here...
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  Posted Jan 19 2018, 07:19 PM
QUOTE (Machina @ Jan 19 2018, 06:40 PM)
I'm no expert, but isn't 2 baddies 9 goodies heavily goodie-sided?
And what exactly do you mean by "if one RID kill is correct the other fails regardless"? Are the two submitted kills checked in order and if the first succeeds, the other automatically fails? That doesn't seem like a very effective deterrent to mass claiming then, IMO, even if it bypasses saves. Goodies could still easily just mass claim D1 and narrow the scum pool down massively, unless it ups the KPN. Then it's just a matter of lynching a baddie day 1 or 2 and coasting to a near-automatic win.
Obviously the goodie kill and baddie self vote manip muddle things a little, but I wouldn't be surprised if most variants of this setup could be "solved" with minimal effort, unless I'm missing something.

And I completely forgot about the spy, though I've no idea what this "beep beep spy" you're talking about is.


It's like plasmid's Xmas spy.

Name x players and if exactly x players in those named are baddies you get a beep. For plasmids it was name three players and get a beep if exactly one is mafia.
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  Posted Jan 19 2018, 07:19 PM
QUOTE (Yuli @ Jan 19 2018, 07:01 PM)
Completely agreed with Machina.

The "beep" spy is generally a role that can list a number of players (usually 3) and gets a "beep" if some of them are baddies.  Plasmid's version gave a beep if exactly one in the list was a baddie.  Additionally, there was a goodie role that always makes a list beep if they are included.  I didn't play in the game, but it looked super neat.  It was called Screwball Mafia



Welp
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  Posted Jan 19 2018, 07:20 PM
QUOTE (Yuli @ Jan 19 2018, 06:01 PM)
Completely agreed with Machina.

The "beep" spy is generally a role that can list a number of players (usually 3) and gets a "beep" if some of them are baddies.  Plasmid's version gave a beep if exactly one in the list was a baddie.  Additionally, there was a goodie role that always makes a list beep if they are included.  I didn't play in the game, but it looked super neat.  It was called Screwball Mafia


I think I was the beep spy in that one and it made for an interesting dynamic as far as figuring things out. Or maybe I was the one who made things go beat I don't remember I just know that the way plasmids said the other rolls up made that very interesting


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  Posted Jan 19 2018, 07:33 PM
While certainly interesting sounding, does a complex, non-standard role like that even belong in a template for "classic" games? Or is it well-tested and pretty much standard here?


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  Posted Jan 19 2018, 07:54 PM
My opinion... We have this already with the turbo games. We can certainty expand that to include bigger, non turbo games.


Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity - Hanlon's Razor
Sufficiently advanced cluelessness is indistinguishable from malice - Clarke's Law
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  Posted Jan 19 2018, 07:55 PM
I agree it is goodie sided. I feel like if you're going for generic, the ratio should always be between 1:3 and 1:4. So 2 baddies would work against 6-8 goodies, 3 against 9-11 goodies, 4 against 12-14 goodies and so on.

Passive versus active redirect is always a good way to double that up and there are so many mafias in our wiki to draw ideas to fill up those goodie roles.

Finally, playing mod here, I will move this to Mafia Discussion and possibly pin it as a resource later on


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  Posted Jan 19 2018, 10:53 PM
When I think of a "generic" mafia game that's likely to be reasonably balanced with pretty commonly used roles, I think of something like the this set of potential roles and saying choose N of the following baddie roles and 2N+1 to 2N+3 of the following goodie roles, with roles near the top of the list being the most commonly used.

Baddies
Have BTSC and a group NK, can give them the option of trading the NK for two RID kill attempts (both RIDs must be correct or both will fail) if they don't have a role spy
Block you're told whether or not you successfully block an action
Redirect you're told whether or not you successfully redirect an action
Vote x0-x2 I prefer this instead of vote redirect for baddies since vote redirect is more powerful and can effectively give baddies majority earlier
Lynch frame this should probably be limited to ODTG or 2x during the game or smth
Role spy mainly to allow spy-killing and fake-claiming the dead role if they don't get the double-RID option
RID kill only if there's not a baddie role spy and if there's not the double-RID option
Spy fooler

Goodies
Don't have more than two of the following spies, and I tend to not like role spies or faction spies if there aren't ways of fooling spies like a baddie redirect and/or spy fooling roles
Role spy
Faction spy
Follow spy (see who your target acts on)
Lookout spy (see who acts on your target)
Host yes/no question
Non-spy roles
Save
Kill
Block you're told whether or not you successfully block an action
Redirect you're told whether or not you successfully redirect an action
Trap
Vote multiplier or vote redirect
Lynch save
Messenger
Masons

That said, mafia has been evolving with things like the double-RID as a countermeasure for claiming, and weaker spies being used more often to prevent baddies from being completely busted with no wiggle room like with role spies. Beep spies might become a common thing, or split spies where one player picks the target and the other player gets the result. And maybe goodie kill roles that either give role spy results to the killer or publicly broadcast the role that gets killed will make the kills more prone to act since they typically don't. Maybe we'll even start playing semi-open instead of completely open setups were some roles aren't disclosed in the OP. But if you want to put together something fairly quickly or just add one or two unconventional roles to an otherwise conventional setup then that up there is prolly what I'd go with.

This post has been edited by plasmid: Jan 19 2018, 10:56 PM
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  Posted Jan 22 2018, 06:49 AM
Yuli Machina
The double rid is something that I and some others have been using, so it was mostly out of reflexive tradition that I included it as the anti-claim mechanism. But I am pro for changing it up and make it better.

Alright let's see what one can do with this


I'm an educated man, I read various remarkable books, but I cannot understand the direction I myself want to go, whether to live or to shoot myself, as it were. So, in case, I always carry a revolver about with me. - Epikhodov
-
And perhaps we are funny. But you must never imagine, that just because something is funny, Monsieur le Marquis, it is not dangerous. - Mr. Croup
-
I have always felt that violence was the last refuge of the incompetent, and empty threats the last sanctuary of the terminally inept. - Monsieur le Marquis
-
There is nothing so dangerous for anyone who has something to hide as conversation!... A human being cannot resist the opportunity to reveal himself and express his personality which conversation gives him. Every time he will give himself away. - Agatha Christie
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  Posted Jan 22 2018, 04:07 PM
QUOTE (Boquise @ Jan 22 2018, 06:49 AM)
Yuli Machina
The double rid is something that I and some others have been using, so it was mostly out of reflexive tradition that I included it as the anti-claim mechanism. But I am pro for changing it up and make it better.

Alright let's see what one can do with this

Yeah, I don't think the benefits of a single RID kill are ever better than a Kill for the baddies.

Two RID kills can compare and exceed a normal kill. But a single RID kill just won't. I think 2 RID Kills is good and a great countermeasure for public claiming.


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  Posted Jan 22 2018, 04:34 PM
QUOTE (Yuli @ Jan 22 2018, 04:07 PM)
QUOTE (Boquise @ Jan 22 2018, 06:49 AM)
Yuli Machina
The double rid is something that I and some others have been using, so it was mostly out of reflexive tradition that I included it as the anti-claim mechanism. But I am pro for changing it up and make it better.

Alright let's see what one can do with this

Yeah, I don't think the benefits of a single RID kill are ever better than a Kill for the baddies.

Two RID kills can compare and exceed a normal kill. But a single RID kill just won't. I think 2 RID Kills is good and a great countermeasure for public claiming.


I don't really have much to add here. Although unlike Plasmid, I would probably let a kill through in the event 1 RID guess is correct and the other is incorrect.
But he may have a reason for an "all or nothing" approach that I'm just not seeing.


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